Dialog with K. Loganathan Part-2.1: About Rig-Veda
Dialog With Loganathan Part-2.1: About Rig-Veda
Greetings. I am glad that my first paper regarding some words of Avesta has generated lively discussions which should add to a better understanding of the past. In this posting I will give my views in response to Dr. Loganathan's response to my first questions. I will interlace my views from the Turkish point of view so that some of the words being questioned can have better clarity. I used this copy to respond because it has Ram Varmha's views embedded in it in brown as well. I will add my part in purple. So the reader will have all three views plus Loganathan's original writing and my questions in the same writing. I hope it will not be too confusing with these different colors. This time I will divide responses into short pieces so that it will be easier on the reader. Responding in a dialog form has one advantage that it has all the things said in one place. Otherwise if one starts writing an independently composed response, then the reader is cut off from what was said before and cannot readily make the connection with what went on earlier.
My best wishes to all of you,
From: Ram Varmha <varmha@...>
Subject: Re: [bcn2004] Tantrism in Rig Veda Replies to Polat Kaya -1
Date: Thu, May 26, 2005, 1:08 PM
I am adding some statements in the main text below. These are in brown fonts.
I do not want to appear intrusive, but I feel it is necessary to express my views as a member of this group, becuase I think clarifications are needed. I mean it only in the proper spirit. I am open to discussion, if any one wants to.
Furthermore, I emphasize that Avesta/Vedic has a common root of Indo-Iranian Aryan heritage.
And, no study of Vedic is complete without an understanding of Avesta. These two share common words, similar rituals even the 'same' gods, in general. So, if Vedic is characterized as Archaic Tamil, then the Iranian Avesta must be the same as well. I will therefore strongly recommend Dr. Loga and co to attempt extracting Tamil words from, or Tamil conversions of, Avesta hymns, if only to prove conclusively the theory that Vedic is Archaic Tamil.
"K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@...> wrote:
This is in partial response to Polat Kaya's post :
Tantrism in Rig Veda Replies to Polat Kaya -1
Dear Polat Kaya
Thank-you so much for these questions which lead me think that I have presupposed too many things and which may be problematic for scholars like you. I shall try to answer to the best of my ability but you can see that it may take several days. I must mention here that there will still be many uncertainties where only later studies can settle the issues satisfactorily for all. I hope great scholars like Clyde Paul Dr BVK Sastry V.Ragahavan and many others will add their views so that we get a comprehensive picture of the matters. Bringing Sumerian languages and culture which is to me Archaic Tamil to the studies of the Vedas is something new and perhaps not to the liking of the Brahmanistic Brahmins and Aryanistic European Indologists. In Indological studies the enormous importance of Tamil literature has been largely overlooked and I believe this neglect must be corrected to see exactly how the Indian cultures including the Vedic developed.
I shall attend to your questions in parts but let me mention that it may take a few days.
>>>> Tantrism in Rig Veda (1:1;23) : Part 1 The Meaning of Soma
The language of Rig Veda and allied literature Rg, is not only a variant of Archaic Tamil closely related to SumeroTamnil but also a language on the way towards becoming C.Tamil. So the Vedas are documents in Tamil and this explains why the Vedas , the Naal Veeta NeRi, was taken at least by CaGkam Tamils as their sacred lore and Tamil kings patronized the Yajna and so forth. Now the recovery of the Tamil nature of Vedas also helps us to recover the original meanings which have become lost by the Brahmanical interpretations of later times and which has not been put right by the IndoAryanism of the Western scholars who seem to be more anxious to have a footing in the genisis of Indic cultures than a proper understanding of them. There is a systematic neglect of the Sumerian and Dravidian not only in linguistics but also in metaphysics and because of which most of their studies are not only shallow but also of peripheral importance. <<<<
Polat Kaya: In view of the understanding that
words are names for one concept each or for multiple concepts combined in one
word, will you please clarify the following:
- What are the meanings of RIG, VEDA and RIG VEDA in the name
"RIG VEDA"? If they have multiple meanings, I would appreciate it if
you would identify them.
The term ëRig Vedaî is applied to the earliest and largest collection of hymns that I am taking for studies. I suspect that the word ìrigí is related Su. ri and which exists as Tamil eri meaning Fire. The ëgí in ërigí may be optional as is the ëgí as Su du(g) , to speak etc. Now the word Veda is related to Sk Vidya and Ta, vittai : metaphysical illuminations. I suspect it is derived from Su. sid meaning knowledgeí as in ësid-nig-sidí as applied to what is taught in e-dub-ba the tablet house , the school for children
So I guess Rig Vedaî means the Metaphysical Understanding one gains through meditations upon the Metaphysical Fire, also called Agni and which was practiced in the temples during Bakti period ( 400 AD to ()) AD) as ëeri oombalí celebrating ritualistically the FIRE
The word Rg comes from the Sanskrit root Rí, which following the Harvard-Koyoto convention is a hard ërí as differentiated from a soft ërí as in the Su. ri or the Tamil ëerií, meaning fire. In fact, there is a root in Sanskrit for ërií which means ëto go, to move, to obtain, to displayí etc. The root of Rí is also the same. And from this the word Rg, which means ëto praiseí, is derived. Hence, combining with Veda, the meaning of
Rg Veda = Praise + Knowledge.
The following verse of Sambantar ( c. 700 AD) may help to bring out this meanings
kaRRaaGku eri oombi kalaiyai vaaraamee
ceRRaar vaaz Tillai ciRRamplameeya
muRRaa veN tiGkal Mutalvan paatamee
paRRaa ninRaarai paRRaa paavaGkaLee
The Tillai temple that holds TiruciRRamplam, the Realm of Pure Consciousness is full of sages who by way of metaphysical quests also practice the ritual of VeeLvi and by which they battle and win over the arrival and seizure by Kali (= kari) the dark stuff or Malam ( the cause of death and all miseries) , Now BEING-as-Siva (in addition to dancing with Fire, holding it in one of His Hands) also sports the Crescent Moon ( that is the source of Amutu that cools and rejuvenates) Now anyone who remains steadfast in their LOVE for the Feet of such a BEING, will remain free from falling into evil ways ( because of the metaphysical illuminations the Fire maintains)
Here ìeri oombutalí is the ritual of Fire Worship by creating it in a fire pit also known s Yanjna ( > Ta. yaakam), These practices go back to Sumerian times where the fire pit was named ësu-luhí i.e. Ta. suulai (fire pit, kiln) etc. In the Tamil tradition it seems to be an aid to meditate upon the Metaphysical Fire that would, if actively present would burn off all the dirt within and thus purify the soul
1) "RIG VEDA could be "Metaphysical Understanding" providing that we understand the parts of Rig Veda first. This is not clear in your descriptions above. The term "metaphysical" is being used frequently in the above descriptions. I feel that the concepts of "Metaphysical Understanding" and "Metaphysical Fire" can be understood better if one understands what is meant by the "Physical Understanding" and "Physical Fire" first. Without understanding the physical aspects of concepts one cannot be clear in abstract concepts of metaphysics. The metaphysical understanding always leaves room for misunderstanding and misleading conclusions. Therefore in my response I will try to stay within the physical boundaries of concepts.
2. Your expression: "Kali (= kari) the dark stuff or Malam ( the cause of death and all miseries)" is interesting both linguistically and culturally. First of all the term "KARI" meaning "dark" is definetely an altered form of the Turkish word "KARA" meaning "black" or "dark". Similarly the English term "DARK" is a restructured form of Turkish expression "KARADI" meaning "it is black", "it is dark". "Black" (kara) is regarded as a symbol of death and destruction in Turkish culture. Similarly, the term "MALAM" is very much a form of Turkish expressions "ÖLÜMÜM" meaning "I am death" and "ELEMIM" meaning "I am misery". It can be seen that they use the same consonants but vowels are different which is expected in alteration of Turkish texts.
3. Additionally, in your expression "in a fire pit also known s Yanjna ( > Ta. yaakam)", both terms "YANJNA" and Ta. "YAAKAM" are very much from Turkish. "YAN" is the root of Turkish verb "yanmak" meaning "to burn", and "YAK" is the root of the Turkish verb "yakmak" meaning "to make it burn, to cause burning, to cause fire". Thus the word "YANJNA" is a restructured form of Turkish expression "YANAN" meaning "that which is burning" which is a "fire pit". Additionally, Tamil term "YAAKAM" is the restructured version of Turkish "YAKMA" meaning "alighting, burning, starting a fire" which again is like starting a "fire pit". Therefore, it is clear that these words also have their origin in Turkish.
- What is the exact meaning of the name "Tantrism"
in Rig Veda? It is said that its source is the Sanskrit word
"tantra". What is meant by the term "tantra"?
The word ëtantraí has several meanings. One is ëtextí as in Tantra-Ukti and is rendered in Tamil as Nuul utti. These terms are used as equivalent in Tamil grammatical literature though the native Tamil word is Nuul Uttií the interpreetive movements of the mind that will enable one to UNDERSTAND the text being studied. Now there is another sense as in the ìTantiram Mantriam Yantiram ë- terms that go together. By Tantrism I mean the Tantiram here and which means ëritualistic practices .like Puja (offering of flowers) aaraati (showing of light ) towards an icon (an Idol)
Etymologically this word can be derived ( I think) from ëtar-til-amí taking back to the Sumerian roots where ëtarí is the given as :ínam-tar-reí and ëtilí is to live , exist and so forth. So perhaps the original meaning was ìa practice that would cause the existence (til-am) of the metaphysical essences ( nam-tar) . At the moment there is a degenerate sense to Tantiram in Tamil ; skill, strategy , a trick etc. that may be related to this.
Now this is the sense in which I use the word to describe the essence of the hymn 1:1:23 as you find very clearly the rituals of puja and aaratti and which are continued to this day as part of Temple Worship. I am not sure Rig Vedas sings about Temple Worship but certainly, in this and many others hymns, sings of Icon Worship .
I am confused here with the reference to hymn 1:1:23. Does this mean ñ Book 1: Hymn 1: Verse 23, as is normally the convention? If so, there is no verse 23, in Book 1:, because Hymn 1 has only 9 verses. Unless this is cleared up, one does not know what is referred to here?
But, temple worship is not found in the Vedas nor Avesta. Their sacred location for worship was the ëfire alterí, where the priests sat around singing the praise of the gods and offering libations and seeking blessings. There was no iconic worship of any form that has been noted.
Now, the meaning of the word Tantra comes from the Sanskrit word ìTamthramî, meaning, primarily, a religious treatise teaching, magical spells and mystical formulations for the worship of the deities or the attainment of super human powers. To the best of my understanding this was a separate form of religious worship in India that needs a couple of hours to fully explain. But, I will refer to the works of Sir John Woodroffe, otherwise known by his pen-name, Arthur Avalon (a name he picked in memory of the legendary King Arthur of Avalon, of Britain!). But, that is if some one wants to get deep into the subject of Tantra.
Now I am in the process of delineating the differences between Tantrism and Shamanism. I notice that the notion of Transductive Perceptions- the vision of Third Eye plays a central role in Sumerian Tantrism . This goes well with Icon Worship for it is one of the means of enjoying a virtual experience of the real visions of the Third Eye, the Nutal Vizi .
There is a discussion going on, on the web-group,Indo-Eurasian Research re shamanism in the Vedas. I have never accepted their notions, but it can be debated.
Polat Kaya: In Part-1
of this dialog, I discussed some important words of Avesta. Avesta
and Rig Veda are said to be related to each other. With my Part-1 about some
Avesta words in mind, we can turn to RIG-VEDA or RG-VEDA now.
5. First there seems to be a confusion here in the name definitions. In one hand Loganathan says that "g" in "RIG" may be optional, thus leaving only the "RI" part of the word, yet Ram Varmha shows the word as "RG" where the vowel is missing thus implying that the word RG may have multiple forms and meanings.
6. Additionally it seems that the meanings attributed to RIG and VEDA individually have been interchanged, that is, "RIG" must refer to "knowledge" and "VEDA" must be the "praise". Hence the combined form "RIG VEDA" would mean "Knowledge + Praise" rather than "Praise + Knowledge". Before one starts praising anything or anyone, one has to learn about that thing or person. In other words, "praise" is done only after "knowledge" is obtained. It is not the other way around. This is clearly seen in the Turkish OGUZ (O-GÖZ) and AGUZ combination. The sunlight coming from the Sun, that is, Ogoz (O-Göz) lights up the environment so that the human "eye" (Tr. "göz") can see and transfer the information to the human brain where it is processed. Only after that, the "mouth" (Tr. "aguz"), under the control of the brain, can start verbalizing about it. Thus seeing is yje main source of "knowledge" and "word" (Tr. "aguz") "praises" the knowledge afterwards.
7. Furthermore reference is made to the Sanskrit word "RI" indicated by Ram and meaning to go, to move, to obtain, to display, etc.. It seems that this word "RI" and Turkish "YERI" (YÜRÜ) meaning "to go, walk, and move," are related to each other. Thus, when the Sanskrit word "RI" or "ERI" was coined, the Turkish "YERI" (YÜRÜ) was also present.
8. Similar to this Turkish versus Sanskrit correspondence, there is the Latin word "IRE" meaning "to go"  which is a disguised form of Turkish "yeri, yürü". Another form of this Latin word is "GRADI" meaning "to step" which is a disguised form of Turkish word "GIDER" meaning "he goes", "he steps"; similarly Latin "DISCEDERE" meaning "set out, go out", when rearranged as "DISE-CEDER" is the restructured form of Turkish "DIShA GIDER" meaning "he goes out". If Latin and Sanskrit are related languages, then Sanskrit "RI" (to go, to move) is also a form of Turkish "yeri, yürü".
9. In Ram's writing reference is made to a "third eye' saying: "This goes well with Icon Worship for it is one of the means of enjoying a virtual experience of the real visions of the Third Eye, the Nutal Vizi ."
With respect to the "Third Eye" concept, I like to mention that a "third eye" embellishment is found on Turkic tomb stones strewen in Central Asia.  indicating that this concept was already in existence in Central Asia. Of course for Sun worshipping Turanians, "Sun" was the foremost "seeing third eye". Without sun no seeing was possible. Here again we have some commonality between the Turanian and Indian subcontinent's religious thinking.
10. Ram Varmha says;
The word Veda comes from the Sanskrit root ëvidí ëknowledgeí and is found in the twin language Iranian Avesta as: vaÍdha = knowledge, information.
Furthermore, the word Veda has Indo-European connection, with IE base,
*weid, = to see, to know, hence, wise. Also, Latin, videre = to see. The root ëvidí is found in many other European languages as well.
Such connections have generated interest amongst scholars, that perhaps the Vedic originated in India and traveled to the West, through Iran. But, this is yet to be explored and is beyond the scope of this discussion.
So, the connection of Rg to either the Su. or Tamil roots is not clear to me. Nor do I see any leaning of the word towards, Metaphysical Understanding through Metaphysical Fire. There simply seems to be no direct connection to such arbitrary words!
10. The Vedas writings are said to be the oldest texts of Hinduism as indicated by your responses and also by others. Thus they are ancient documents containing literature of those times. Ancient documents are called "YAZIT" (YAZID) or "YAZMA" in Turkish, originating from the root word "YAZ" meaning "to write". In this context the term "VEDAS", where "V" is, by another name, a "Y", has linguistic kinship to the Turkish word "YAZID" (YAZIT) by way of restructuring. It should be noted that letters V, Y, U, W (UU, VV or YY) and their combinations have been used in all European languages as disguising letters of the Turkish source texts.
11. Loganathan referred to the term "VEDA" by saying: "Now the word Veda is related to Sk Vidya and Ta, vittai : metaphysical illuminations." If this understanding is correct, then, the word "VEDA" and the Sanskrit word "VIDYA" have the linguistic relation with the Turkish word "AYADI" with V/Y shift. Turkish "AYADI" means "it is light", "it is illumination". Of course obtaining "knowledge" is the source of mental "illumination" of the mind. This concept of mental "illumination" is a metaphor describing the "enlightenment" of a person due to acquiring knowledge about his/her environment and also to his/her inner and spiritual world. Turks of Central Asia use the term "AK AYAS", meaning "white light" , as a name for the Sky-God. In this expression "AK" means "white" and "AYAS" means "light". Thus the Sk "Vidya" and Ta, "vittai" meaning "metaphysical illuminations" are related to the Turkish term "AYA" or "AYADI" by way of restructuring. Of course, the Turkish "Ak Ayas" definition also refers to the SUN which is the source of the "white light". "White light" is a combination of all the colors, that is, the presence of the light energy at different frequencies, emanating from the Sun, yet "black" (Tr. "KARA") means "lack of all colors". In other words light waves at all frequencies are absorbed by the receiver and hence nothing is reflected back to be seen.
In view of all these and in this context, the term "VEDA" or the Sanskrit "VIDYA" and Tamil "VITTAI" are derived from Turkish "AYADI" rather than the Sumerian "SID".
12. Above Ram Varmha indicated "Rg Veda = Praise + Knowledge". As I noted above, this "Rg Veda" definition should be in the form "knowledge + praise", that is, "Rig" or "RG" corresponds to "knowledge" and "Veda" correspnds to "praise". This would be so because we must know first before we can praise. Thus if we take the term "VEDA" to mean "praise", then "VEDA" is a form of the Turkish word "ÖVÜDI" meaning "it is praise". The Turkish expression ÖVÜDI (övüdür, övüdir) is from Tr. verb 'övmek' meaning "to praise". In ancient and even in present religious rituals, generally the subject deity of the ritual is praised with "hymns" chanted by performers. Even the word "HYMN" which has Y = V and Greek "H = I" letters has the form of IVMN" which is very much Turkish "ÖVMEN" meaning "your praise".
13. Loganathan takes the word "RIG" as meaning "fire". I am not convinced that its source is Sumerian "RI" and/or from Tamil "ERI" meaning "fire" beacause letter "G" is missing in RI and ERI. However, I would think that if "RIG" is "fire" then it is derived from the Turkish word "GOR" (KOR) meaning "fire" which has been read backwards to derive RIG or RG with a vowel change. RIG or RG being "knowledge" and "fire" would be related to this Turkish word.
14. In ancient Turanian religious concept, Sun is the "fire eye" (Tr. "KOR-GÖZ") of the universal creator Sky-God (Tr. Gök Tanru). Additionally, Sun is the "seeing eye" (Tr. "GÖR GÖZ") of the creator Sky-God. Without the Sun's illumination, nothing can be seen and learned. Thus SUN is the source of "seeing" and "learning". Of course "GOR/GÖR" meaning "to see" relates to the human "eye" which is "GÖZ/KÖZ" in Turkish. Additionally Turkish "KÖZ" also means "fire". The Sun, being the foremost "deity" of the ancient world, was the subject of much "praise" and still is by all believers. Since "fire" was a symbol of the Sun's fire, in religious rituals, a large fire was set ablaze in the middle of encircling believers of the Sun. They would chant praises, dance like the dancing flames of the fire around the "fire".
15. Additionally, the name "RIG VEDA" having the meaning "knowledge" tells us that it is a restructured form of the Turkish expression "GÖR VE DE" meaning "See and speak" which are the source and spread of knowledge. Of course, Turkish "GÖR VE DE" refers to the human "eye and mouth", that is, Turkish "GÖZ ve AGUZ" or "O-GÖZ and AGUZ", thus relating human being to the Sky-God concept. Turkish VE means "and" and DE means "speak, say, tell". Of course to aqcuire "knowledge", "seeing" alone is not sufficient; what is 'seen' must also be understood, then, what is seen becomes "knowledge". In Turkish, this is expressed with "GANISH" (KANISH) meaning understanding. When this "understanding" is verbalized, then it is "GONUSH" (KONUSH) meaning "speech, word, language".
In Rig Veda, the god "Agni, the fire-god considered a messenger of the gods" was prominent. But AGNI the fire-god is the restructured form of Turkish "GÜN" meaning, sun, sunlight and day". Additionally AGNI, as messenger of gods, is the restructured form of the Turkish "GANI" (KANI) meaning "understanding" which enlightens the "mind".
16. From these Turkish related sources, it is clear that various meanings attributed to the name "RIG VEDA" in ancient Hinduism are explainable only in Turkish. Most likely Tamil attributions are also met.
17. From a source in Internet we get the following about the term VEDAS. It is said that: "The Aryans who invaded Northwest India around 1500 BC compiled them. These Vedic texts are collection of sacred literature that combine the Aryan nature-fire-soma religion and the native religion of the Indian people whom they conquered. This large body of sacred works, which evolved over five hundred years between 1000 and 500 BC, is divided into five samhitas (collections) separately designated: Rigveda, Yajurveda,Samaveda, Artharvaveda, and the Upanishads."
18. In this definition, a reference is made to "ARYANS" invading Northwest India" indicating that "Aryans" were not native to India. The name "Aryan" refers to "Indo-Europeans". Yet the name "ARYAN" is derived from Turkish "ARAYAN" meaning "wanderer" which describes these invading people. In the beautiful Indian mythological story of RAMAYANA, which is said to belong to "Aryans", the name "RAMAYANA" is a restructured form of the Turkish word "ARAYANUM" meaning "I am wanderer". The name also indicates that these people believed in a deity that was a "wanderer". This deity was the "MOON".
19. In the epic story RAMAYANA, RAMA with his brother LAKSHMANA travel through the jungle until he finds his abducted wife "SITA". In a picture depiction of this story, RAMA holds a "crescent moon" in his hand. This story has a lot in common with the motives of the Greek mythological story IO. The name "IO" pronounced as "AY O" is nothing but the Turkish expression "AY O" meaning "it is Moon". The Moon is a "wanderer" in the sky around the earth. The Greek "IO" story is a "Moon, Sun and Earth" story. This story is a re-embellishment of the ancient Masar (Misir) story involving god HORUS and goddess ISIS. So the story belongs to much older times going back to the times of ancient Tur/Turk Masarians. Thus ancient Turanian stories have been restructured, re-embellished and re-presented under differing names.
20. Will Durant, in his book, defines Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda, Artharvaveda, and the Upanishads" as: 
The Rig-veda, or Knowledge of the Hymns of Praise;
The Sama-veda, or Knowledge of Melodies;
The Yajur-veda, or Knowledge of the Sacrificial Formulas;
The Atharva-veda, or Knowledge of the Magic Formulas; and
The Upanishads, or confidential confrences for philosophers.
21. In Turkish the word "SEMAI" (SAMAI) means "in music, a form special to vocal music; a form used by minstrels in folk music."  Additionally, "SEMA" (SAMA) means the "sky". Furthermore "SEMA" (SAMA) is the name of the music that is played during the ceremonies of the so-called "Whirling Derwishes" whose founder was the Turkish great mystic philosopher Mevlana Celalettini Rumi. Thus it is clear that in this Vedic literature called SAMA-VEDA, from Turkish "SAMA ÖVÜDÜ" meaning "it is praising of sky", most likely the benefits of "SKY" was being praised with songs whose words had been restructured from Turkish.
22. In the name UPANISHHADS, When the name is rearranged letter-by-letter as "US-DANISHAP" and read phonetically as in Turkish, it is the pure Turkish expression "US DANISHIP" (AKIL DANISHIP) meaning "asking for adwise" or "having a confrence for wisdom". This Turkish correspondence with the meaning of: "confidential confrences for philosophers" for this Vedic name is unquestionable evidence that Sanskrit words were also restructured from Turkish.
23. In the Rig-veda language, the Sanskrit word "MANTRA" is associated with the term "hymn".  The word "MANTRA", when rearranged as "ANMATR", is the restructured form of Turkish word "ANMATUR" meaning "it is remembering" or "remembering TUR." The name TUR is another name for the ancient Turanian "Sky-god" and the Tur/Turk peoples. Hence "MANTRA" is "remembering with praise" the Sky-God TUR and the "Tur ancestors".
24. It appears from these Vedic words that mostly monosyllabic Turkish words were concatenated to make single words that are not recognizable as being from the Turkish source. This shows that Indo-European religious people got these words from the ancient Turkish language and altered them to make their own words.
1. Cassell's Latin and English Dictionary, 1987, p. 288 under "go".
2. Hüseyin Namik Orkun, Hüseyin Namik Orkun, "Eski Türk Yazitlari", Türk Dil
Kurumu Yayinlari: 529, Ankara, 1987, p. 422-423.
3. Mircae Eliade, "Shamanism Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy", Princeton
University Press, 1974, p.10.
4. Will Durant, "The Story of Our Civilization: Part-1, Our Oriental Heritage",
Simon And Schuster, New York, 1954, p. 407.
5. New Redhouse Turkish-English Dictionary, Redhouse Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1987,
Best wishes to all,
(to be continued in "Dialog With K. Loganathan Part-2.2"